The question as to when Jesus was crucified is a favorite apparent contradiction hyper-skeptics like to use in any debate. In the post below Kornform brings up the argument again, even though it had been effectively answered by Dr. Butner in an earlier debate with AOL hyper-skeptic Ariex. The posts made by skeptics are shown in bold red, and Scripture is shown in white.

Subject: Re: One question?
Date: Tue, 06 July 1999 06:36 PM EDT
From: Kornform

>Go to any reputable doctor and ask him whether any human could survive a crucifixion.

K: I have read evidence that it sometimes took days to kill someone by crucifixion.

Mark 15:25 And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.

Luke 23:33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him...

44 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.

John 19:14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King

15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.

16 Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away.

Subj: DrGary777: To Airex,
Date: 96-08-18 11:49:52 edt
From: Ariex

from ARIEX, ok?

>>>Jesus was on the cross for six hours.<<<

Mark 15:25 "And it was the third hour, and they crucified him."

Scholars tell us that the third hour would be about 9 in the morning.

Matthew 27:46 "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice,..."

Which indeed is a six hour period on the cross. BUT, Dr. Butner,

John 19:14 "And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour:...John 19:16 "Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified."

So which is it, the third hour or the sixth hour that he was crucified?

One who sign's his posts, "Dr." would also be expected to know when he is setting himself up for another problem with biblical contradictions, eh? As a matter of fact, one would also expect him to do better than object to some of my previous points and offer to "get back to me" with arguments---and then find him willing only to pick a nit while avoiding the substance of the arguments presented.

Ariex

My Response:

To Ariex,

Airex<<One who sign's his posts, "Dr." would also be expected to know when he is setting himself up for another problem with biblical contradictions, eh? >> 

Oh! 

DrGary777>>>Jesus was on the cross for six hours.<<<

Mark 15:25 "And it was the third hour, and they crucified him."

Ariex<<Scholars tell us that the third hour would be about 9 in the morning.>> 

I fully agree with both the Scriptures and the scholars on this point.

Matthew 27:46 "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice,..."

Ariex<<Which indeed is a six hour period on the cross. BUT, Dr. Butner,>>

John 19:14 "And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour:...John 19:16 "Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified."

Ariex<<So which is it, the third hour or the sixth hour that he was crucified?>>

When I examine the gospel accounts, I am amazed at the harmony considering none of the four evangelists had a Rolex, Rado, Seiko or Timex watch. :)

It is obvious John sets the sixth hour as being *before* Jesus was handed over to be crucified, whereas Mark states Jesus was crucified the third hour (our 9 AM). Now, one of the two is wrong or there is another way of explaining this apparent discrepancy. When we examine the other gospels we clearly see that Matthew, Mark and Luke use the same time frame:

Now from the sixth hour (our Noon) there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. (our 3 PM) And about the ninth hour (our 3 PM) Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?  Matt 27:45-46 (KJV)

And it was about the sixth hour (our Noon), and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour (our 3 PM). Luke 23:44 (KJV)

And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take. And it was the third hour (our 9 AM), and they crucified him. Mark 15:24-25  (KJV)

Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him. And when the sixth hour (our Noon) was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour (our 3 PM).  And at the ninth hour (our 3 PM) Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Mark 15:32-34  (KJV)

Now, John states Jesus was handed over to be crucified *about* the sixth hour which only appears to contradict the other three gospels:

When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha. 14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! 16 Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away. John 19:13-14, 16  (KJV)

What appears to be a conflict vanishes when we consider John penned his gospel sometime between 80 and 98 AD, most likely from Ephesus where he spent many years.  There is NO question that it was written from the area of Asia Minor, for gentiles, and hence reflects a Greko-Roman conception of time. Ephesus, capital of the Roman providence of Asia, operated under the Roman system of numbering time instead of the Jewish system. The Jewish time system started numbering from sunup, approximately 6 AM.  Matthew, Mark and Luke used the Jewish system, and give the third hour (9 AM) for crucifixion, sixth hour (Noon) start of darkness, and the ninth hour (3 PM) for Jesus’ death. Roman time numbering started at midnight, and, when John states that Jesus was handed over to be crucified sometime after the sixth hour he is referencing Roman time, 6 AM. Clearly two and one-half hours from the time Jesus was handed over for crucifixion (after 6 AM), until the actual crucifixion (9 AM) fits the time frame perfectly. 

The reason Matthew, Mark and Luke used the Jewish time system can be easily explained by the fact that while Mark probably wrote from Rome his source was Peter who used the Jewish time system. Most scholars believe Matthew and Luke used both Mark and Q as source material, which would explain why they agree with Mark.

There is no contradiction.

Grace and peace,

Dr. Gary   

Ariex's Response:

Subj: DrGary777: identity crisis
Date: 96-08-25 14:13:12 edt
From: Ariex

>>>You need to learn the difference between "imagined" and real contradictions.<<<

How can one learn the difference when scholars are unable to prove that the stories in the Gospels are anything more than imagination? IMO, the contradictions are all imaginary, but real from a literary standpoint. The synoptics, derived from Mark or perhaps a common source document, say Jesus was crucified on the 3rd hour, but John clearly says it was after the 6th hour, so to deny a contradiction would seem to be admission of one's inability to see the obvious.

>>>Please point out to me just one offer I ever made to get back with you and failed to comply? Also provide the date and board?<<<

In the interest of promoting a kinder and gentler discussion (and because I just got my first TOS violation---after almost 5 years on these boards--I'm thoroughly ashamed of myself) I will allow you the points here. The response was in reference to your very short post "I'll get back to you on that" or some such, made about 2 months ago, and I've been on one long and two short trips since then, and have not really kept up with the board activity, so you may have gotten back to me but I either missed it or forgot what you were getting back to me with.

Was I wrong in my statement? I don't know. Possibly. I don't keep the running logs like I used to. Arialle has them in her computer but every time I get something from her files I seem to mess up whatever she was doing so I've been trying to stay out of her computer lately.

However, I must note, that the amount of ad hominem in response to my posts is most gratifying. If a better response was within the respondent's grasp, it would have been offered. I have seen very little of substance and much contention in your responses so far.

Ariex

Subj: DrGary777: keeps on ticking
Date: 96-08-28 12:52:08 edt
From: Ariex

>>>When we examine the other gospels we clearly see that Matthew, Mark and Luke use the same time frame:<<<

What we clearly see, especially when we go through the synoptics, looking at each similarity side by side, is that two have obviously copied the earliest of the writings rather than recounting an independent experience. This is so foundational in textual scholarship I wonder why you bring up such an obviously irrelevant point as the fact that they agree. I submit that you would be hard pressed to find a credible NT scholar who would object to the conclusion that Matt. and Luke plagiarize Mark, accounting for the similarities.

>>>Now John stated Jesus was handed over to be crucified *about* the sixth hour which only appears to contradict the other three gospels:<<<

Yes, it appears to those who read the scripture instead of accepting the convoluted pleading around this discrepancy. Here we go again, folks, another "Luke was Mary's genealogy" excuse. Let's see how you dig yourself a hole on this one.

>>>What appears to be a conflict vanishes when we consider John penned his gospel sometime between 80 and 98 AD from Ephesus where he spent many years. Ephesus, capital of the Roman providence of Asia, operated under the Roman system of numbering time instead of the Jewish system.<<<

Which John? Scholars and theologians cannot even agree on that much. Your information is a fundamentalist "best case scenario" "traditional" assumption not supported by historical data.

>>>Roman time numbering started at midnight, and, when John states Jesus was handed over to be crucified sometime after the sixth hour he is referencing Roman time, 6 AM.<<<

Under your scenario, the whole series of incidents, from Caiaphus to Pilate, back to the Jews, back to Pilate, to the Jewish people who cried out for the release of Barrabas, scourging, parading Jesus around in a purple robe, all this would have to have taken place in the wee hours of the morning with all the participants, the ruling class of both Rome and Judah, as well as a crowd of spectators, dragged from their beds at an ungodly hour for the trial. All this activity, according to your "theory" would have to have been COMPLETED at about the 6th hour, sunrise. Those interested should review the four gospel accounts of the trial and crucifixion, preferably with two or more Bibles, comparing the sequences of events side by side.

Let's see now. The trial scene starts off at John 18:27 "Peter then denied again: and immediately the cock crew"

Well, now, cocks don't usually crow in the middle of the night, do they? John's chicken calls your apology a turkey.

Luke 22:66 "And as soon as it was day, the elders of the people and the chief priests and the scribes came together, and led him into their council, saying, ..."

And Luke himself accuses you of misrepresenting the facts. He says Jesus was not led before the council UNTIL IT WAS DAY, after the cock crowed, at least the 6th hour.

Matthew 27:20 "But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus."

Now we have the "multitude", the crowds of peasants in on the deal. Do you maintain that they, too, would be all bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, gathered in the square before sunrise?

The activities described are clearly those done during daylight hours when people are normally about, especially those concerning crowds of onlookers. The scriptures themselves refute your "Roman time" theory. Therefore, there IS a contradiction about the time of crucifixion.

Ariex

Ariex’sSmoke&Mirrors 1

To Ariex,

DrGary777>>>When we examine the other gospels we clearly see that Matthew, Mark and Luke use the same time frame:<<<

Ariex’s response<<What we clearly see, especially when we go through the synoptics, looking at each similarity side by side, is that two have obviously copied the earliest of the writings rather than recounting an independent experience. This is so foundational in textual scholarship I wonder why you bring up such an obviously irrelevant point as the fact that they agree.>>

Well, well, well, here we see the usual SMOKE and MIRRORS to distract from your error. I NEVER STATED or IMPLIED Matthew and Luke did not use large portions of Mark in their gospels. Reread my statement, "When we examine the other gospels we clearly see that Matthew, Mark and Luke used the same time frame." When we consider Mark was probably written in Rome and Luke in Asia Minor the same argument could be made for them as John. Matthew was the only one written in Palestine. However, since Mark probably used Peter for his chronological source we end up with both Matthew and Luke using the Jewish system, while John was writing independently from them and, hence, was not dependant upon Peter's use of the Jewish time chronological system.

Ariex<< I submit that you would be hard pressed to find a credible NT scholar who would object to the conclusion that Matt. and Luke plagiarize Mark, accounting for the similarities.>>

Your point is irrelevant to the discussion at hand, I agree Matthew and Luke incorporated elements of Mark in their writings. YOU ARE NOT CORRECT that *credible* NT scholars would use the word "plagiarize" to describe what Matthew and Luke did with Mark. That is a pejorative word, purposefully CHOSEN BY YOU to denigrate the Synoptics. SCHOLARS would NEVER use the word.

DrGary777>>>Now John stated Jesus was handed over to be crucified *about* the sixth hour which only appears to contradict the other three gospels:<<<

Ariex’s response<<Yes, it appears to those who read the scripture instead of accepting the convoluted pleading around this discrepancy. Here we go again, folks, another "Luke was Mary's genealogy" excuse. Let's see how you dig yourself a hole on this one.>>

Here we see more SMOKE and MIRRORS in an attempt to distract from your error. Please deal with this issue at hand. There simply is NO REAL CONTRADICTION between John and Mark’s use of time. I will post my response again so you can hone up on your reading skills:

DrGary777’s response<<What appears to be a conflict vanishes when we consider John penned his gospel sometime between 80 and 98 AD from Ephesus where he spent many years. Ephesus, capital of the Roman providence of Asia, operated under the Roman system of numbering time instead of the Jewish system. The Jewish time system started numbering from sunup, approximately 6 AM. Matthew, Mark and Luke used the Jewish system, and give the third hour (9 AM) for crucifixion, sixth hour (Noon) start of darkness, and the ninth hour (3 PM) for Jesus’ death. Roman time numbering started at midnight, and, when John states that Jesus was handed over to be crucified sometime after the sixth hour he is referencing Roman time, 6 AM. Clearly two and one-half hours from the time Jesus was handed over for crucifixion (after 6 AM), until the actual crucifixion (9 AM) fits the time frame perfectly. There is no contradiction.>>

DrGary777's initial response>>>What appears to be a conflict vanishes when we consider John penned his gospel sometime between 80 and 98 AD from Ephesus where he spent many years. Ephesus, capital of the Roman providence of Asia, operated under the Roman system of numbering time instead of the Jewish system.<<<

Ariex’s response<<Which John? Scholars and theologians cannot even agree on that much. Your information is a fundamentalist "best case scenario" "traditional" assumption not supported by historical data.>>

Which John is irrelevant to this discussion. If it's not John the Evangelist, it's John the Elder ... John the Evangelist's disciple. Big deal. It doesn't change the fact that John wasn't dependant upon the Markian chronological system -- and, hence, free to use the Roman one. You cannot get around the fact that a Greek speaking person wrote it, hence this person utilized the primary time-keeping system of the Greek culture (Roman).

Ariex’s response<<Let's see now. The trial scene starts off at John 18:27 "Peter then denied again: and immediately the cock crew">>.

Ariex<<Well, now, cocks don't usually crow in the middle of the night, do they? John's chicken calls your apology a turkey.>>

Your biblical knowledge is only exceeded by your knowledge of chickens. Roosters crow anytime from about 2:30 am until sun up, depending upon the time of the year and the phase of the moon. It is the modern mythmakers of the movies and TV who have placed their crowing ONLY as the sun arises. And, by the way, they don't crow at the sun. They crow to let the ladies know that they're randy -- uh, ready to have sex. (wink)

Ariex<<And Luke himself accuses you of misrepresenting the facts. He says Jesus was not led before the council UNTIL IT WAS DAY, after the cock crowed, at least the 6th hour.>>

Here you go again mixing apples and oranges. The council did meet in the morning, however, Luke says nothing about it being the 6^th hour. As a matter of fact LUKE CONTRADICTS YOU, because in Luke 23:43-45 he states Jesus was on the cross during the 6^th hour. "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst." Luke 23:43-45 (KJV)

DrGary777’s initial reply>>>Roman time numbering started at midnight, and, when John states Jesus was handed over to be crucified sometime after the sixth hour he is referencing Roman time, 6 AM.<<<

Ariex’s response<<Under your scenario, the whole series of incidents, from Caiaphus to Pilate, back to the Jews, back to Pilate, to the Jewish people who cried out for the release of Barrabas, scourging, parading Jesus around in a purple robe, all this would have to have taken place in the wee hours of the morning with all the participants, the ruling class of both Rome and Judah, as well as a crowd of spectators, dragged from their beds at an ungodly hour for the trial. All this activity, according to your "theory" would have to have been COMPLETED at about the 6th hour, sunrise. Those interested should review the four gospel accounts of the trial and crucifixion, preferably with two or more Bibles, comparing the sequences of events side by side.>>

::::Shaking head in disbelief at ignorance of the Word.:::

You might recall Jesus was praying in the garden and was anxious, because the disciples kept falling ASLEEP. A MULTITUDE (Mk.. 14:33) came from the chief priests, scribes and elders to arrest Jesus during the NIGHT carrying LANTERNS and TORCHES. Jo. 18:3. Then, they lead Him to Annas, father-in-law to the high priest. The servants, officers and Peter were standing by a FIRE warming themselves. Jo. 18:17 From there Jesus was sent to the house of Caiphas, the high priest. Jo. 18:24. There Peter sat in the court of the high priest with the officers warming himself in the LIGHT of the FIRE. Mk. 14:54, Luke 22:56 It was still dark, and yet it was here that Peter denied Jesus for the second and third times, and it was here that the cock crowed twice. Mt. 26:75, Mk. 14:72, Lu. 22:60, Jo. 18:27. It was sometime AFTER the cock crowed for the second time BEFORE DAYLIGHT. Matt. 27:1, Mark 15:1, Lu. 22:66. It was THEN Jesus was delivered to Pilate. Matt. 27:2, Mk. 15:1, Lu. 23:1, Jo. 18:28. Note carefully John 18:28, "They lead Jesus therefore from Caiaphas into the palace; and IT WAS EARLY." Pilate then sent Jesus to Herod, because he considered Jesus to be under his, Herod’s, jurisdiction. Lu. 23:7. Herod mocked Jesus and then sent Him back to Pilate. Lu. 23:11 It was WHEN He was delivered over to be crucified by Pilate that John states it was ABOUT THE SIXTH HOUR. John 19:14 John not being privy to a Rolex, Rado, Seiko or even a good Timex used "ABOUT" to describe his approximation of the time.

Ariex’s response<< The activities described are clearly those done during daylight hours when people are normally about, especially those concerning crowds of onlookers. The scriptures themselves refute your "Roman time" theory. Therefore, there IS a contradiction about the time of crucifixion.>>

I have CLEARLY shown that most of the activities concerning the trials of Jesus took place during the early morning hours BEFORE DAYLIGHT. Your assertion these were mere onlookers is not warranted by the text, in fact they were a MULTITUDE, in every respect comparable to a lynch mob. You might not be aware of this, but Jerusalem would be extremely crowded both prior and during the Passover.

There CLEARLY is NO CONTRADICTION regarding the time of the crucifixion.

Grace and peace,

Dr. Gary Butner

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